The Prime Mover Debate: Conclusion

Here is my conclusion to the Prime Mover debate that I have been enjoying with Richard Bushey of ThereforeGodExists.com  A complete dialog of the debate will be posted soon. But if you wish to be current please review these links in order.

Bushey's introduction

My introduction

Bushey's rebuttal

My rebuttal

Bushey's second rebuttal

My second rebuttal

Bushey's three questions

My three questions

Bushey's conclusion

My Conclusion 

Mr. Bushey claims that “The infinite doesn't exist in nature”  and he opts to verify this statement by using thought experiments.  I have responded that nature is absurd and therefore a logical contradiction cannot disprove nature.  I've supported this by showing how classical logic has no weight in the quantum realm.  One need only Google the famous double slit experiment, quantum superposition or quantum tunneling  to find that classical logic is not universal.   

Bushey feels that I did not address his objection to my claim that contradictory statements can sometimes be simultaneously true.   I find this frustrating since I did address this objection, twice.  He simply doesn't acknowledge any of my responses; he doesn't admit that there is such a thing as quantum logic and that it is incompatible with classic logic. Instead he simply plows onward re-stating ad nauseam that the claim “two contradictory statements can be simultaneously true” is self defeating.   He marvels endlessly at the nonsensical outcome of applying classical logical rules to the absurdity of quantum facts.  Bushey is essentially claiming that quantum mechanics cannot be true since its principles are self defeating.  I hope he reconsiders.

My 3 questions were designed to illustrate the inconsistency in Mr. Bushey’s  logic.  The 1^st question was meant to show that supernatural hypothesis’ are irrational since a supernatural event is essentially defined when something is explainable.  Please note that transcendent and supernatural are synonymous.  Bushey contends that his argument deductively arrives at the conclusion of a transcendent cause.  My claim is that unless he has deductively eliminated all possible natural explanations, then his logic is flawed.  He writes:

“I think there are many conceivable instances wherein it would be irrational to cast doubt upon the supernatural as an explanation, even when there are possible natural explanations” 

……Like comets crashing into the moon spelling out "Jesus is lord"!? Note that Bushey couldn't provide an actual instance to illustrate this point.  

The 2^nd question was meant to illustrate one simple truth: no one prefers a priori deductions over scientific conclusions.  Deductive reasoning alone cannot produce technology, it has cured no diseases and we should be skeptical of its claims to know the origins of the universe. The 3^rd question Implies that a claim about the cause of the universe ought to make a prediction about that cause which could be empirically verified or falsified.  One cannot apply this concept to itself because the statement “a good theory ought to be empirically provable” doesn't make any specific claims about nature.   Bushey’s objection that this is self defeating arises from a sort of equivocation fallacy.   I find it odd that he thinks a good theory shouldn't require empirical verification to succeed.  I don’t find it odd that he could not propose an experiment to verify the necessity of a prime mover.  

Bushey's argument failed to prove that infinity doesn't exist in nature, failed to prove how a mind can exist without a body, time or space, failed to eliminate all natural explanations in order to prove the necessity of a transcendent explanation and failed to show how a prime mover could be empirically verifiable through experimentation.   Therefore, the argument for a prime mover fails. 

The Prime Mover Debate: 3 Questions

This is the continuation of my debate with Richard Bushey of ThereForeGodExists.com.  We are debating whether or not a "Prime Mover" is necessary and we are at the point in the debate where each of us gets the opportunity to pose 3 questions to our opponent.  Mr. Bushey's turn was first. His questions and my responses are below. If you wish to make yourself current with the progression of the debate, please scroll down to the previous post which contains links to our discussion so far.

Question 1:
If time and space had a cause, would you agree that it follows that the cause must transcend time and space?

The Prime Mover Debate: Second Rebuttal

If you are a frequent visitor to this blog, you may have noticed that I've been participating in a blog-debate with Richard Bushey of thereforegodexists.com.  The purpose of this post will be to present my second rebuttal to his position that a “Prime Mover” is necessary to explain why the universe exists.  To be current with the dialog that follows in this post you may wish to review the following links:

Bushey’s Introduction

My Introduction

Bushey’s First Rebuttal

My First Rebuttal

Bushey’s Second Rebuttal

 

My Second Rebuttal

During this debate, I’ve spent a considerable amount of time trying to explain my objections to Mr. Bushey’s argument, specifically on the subject of contradictory statements and the existence of infinity in nature. To begin with let’s discuss a key point of contention between us. My position is based on observations in quantum mechanics which prove that it is possible for two contradictory statements to be simultaneously true.  Based on this fact we can further conclude:

1. Logical contradictions exist in nature
2. Demonstrating a logical contradiction is not a reliable way to disprove natural phenomenon.
3. Classical logic is not the end-all to problem solving in nature, since, on a quantum level it doesn't apply

Bushey has disagreed in two separate replies, stating that to question the Law of Non-Contradiction (LNC) is self defeating and I’ll allow the reader to review his exact statements.  However to my great pleasure I would like to point out that I am not the first person to question the LNC.  It is at very least open to debate and the line of thinking is like this: The laws of nature are just descriptions of what we consistently observe in nature.   If scientists observe some new phenomenon, they don’t discredit it as a violation of law, they rewrite the law to fit what is observed.  The rules of Logic should be open to the same revision. 

There is a wonderful book called “The Law of Non-Contradiction”, in which my summary above is presented:

“….It is possible to revise logical principles or logical rules on the basis of extra-logical considerations-which include empirical considerations.”

Specifically, the authors outline an “Argument from Quantum Mechanics” which concludes:

“The main idea is that,…. classical logic simply provides the wrong results when applied to the quantum domain. The overall structure of the latter domain is not adequately represented by classical logic; but it is by quantum logic.”

The LNC is not as universally accepted as Bushey has presented it to be in his rebuttals.  These objections are fatal to his argument, not just to his conclusion that the past cannot be infinite, but also to the entire methodology by which Bushey has arrived at ALL of his conclusions, that is: Philosophically without empirical support.

Science

I have had the pleasure of reading Alexander Vilenkin’s book called “Many Worlds in One” from which Bushey offered a quote. Unfortunately for theists, on the very next page Vilenkin writes:

“…The theorem that I proved with my colleagues does not give much of an advantage to the theologian over the scientist…. Religion is not immune to the paradoxes of creation.”

“…Scientists have been to rash to admit that the cosmic beginning cannot be described in purely scientific terms. True, it is hard to see how this can be done. But things that seem to be impossible often reflect only the limitation of our imagination.”

The very next chapter of his book is called “Creation of Universes from Nothing”, in which he explains in scientific terms exactly how the universe could have spontaneously come into being from a literal nothing.  Another interesting feature of the Borde Guth Vilenkin Theorem is that while suggesting a finite past, it also suggests eternal inflation of our universe into the future.  It also suggests the creation of an infinite amount of alternate universes in which everything that could possibly happen: does happen. According to Vilenkin, there is an alternate universe in which a Richard Bushey exists who is in total agreement with my argument.  

Unanswered Objections

I discussed in my previous rebuttal that Bushey’s claim that a mind with causal authority can exist without space, time or a body; places a burden of proof upon him.  This is also a fatal objection if unanswered.  

Conclusion

Indeed the past may very well be finite, though as I mentioned before, such a claim if true, will be proven by science.  So why not skip the logic and paradoxes and just go straight to science to support a finite past?  The answer is because the Kalam is totally dependent upon a philosophical conclusion, and its proponents must distance themselves from science because empirical evidence disagrees with the concept of timeless, spaceless, bodiless, universe-creating minds with causal authority.   Again, I haven’t argued at such length because I believe the past is infinite.  I argue because I disagree with the way in which Bushey makes his conclusions, and the same flawed methodology is employed to make additional conclusions which I absolutely DO NOT agree with, specifically the claim that a prime mover is necessary.

On Choosing Atheism over Agnosticism

There is a misconception in American culture that unless you are 100% certain of God's existence, then one ought to self-identify as an agnostic. This is inaccurate, and what is worse is that the mislabeling provides shelter to bad religious ideas. Once the title of agnostic is worn, one feels they are in a non-position to comment or disagree with religious ideology. "Who knows the real truth? Who am I to disagree?" As a former agnostic, I found myself defending religion, not because I believed in it, but because I felt atheists were guilty of the same logic-crimes as a religious person: claiming to know the unknowable. It wasn't until a few years ago that I realized I had mislabeled myself as an agnostic. As it turns out, my mistake was purely in the definition of the terms.

The Prime Mover Debate: First Rebuttal

This is a continuation of the "prime mover" debate I am participating in with Richard Bushey of ThereforeGodExists.com  If you wish to be current on our dialog so far, please read the following links.

His introduction

My introduction

His first rebuttal

My first rebuttal 

In my response to Mr. Bushey’s debate introduction and argument for the existence of a “prime mover” I raised a several objections. To my objections, Mr. Bushey’s has kindly responded in his rebuttal. Yet, despite his response, my objections remain unsatisfied. 

To Be and Not To Be

My first objection was in regard to the paradoxes offered as proof that the infinite cannot exist in reality.  Bushey insists that the mathematical notion of infinity, when applied to real-life thought experiments, will produce logical absurdities and therefore prove the non-existence of infinity.  My response was that a mathematic paradox which produces logical absurdity does not prove non-existence.  I offered a well known example of quantum mechanics, a thought experiment called Schrodinger’s Cat, in which it can be simultaneously true that a cat exist in a living and dead state.  Bushey correctly identified the effect which produces the Schrodinger Cat thought experiment as quantum superposition.  Unfortunately, that was the end of his correctness on the subject.  His interpretation of quantum superposition was that it implies contradictory states 

The Prime Mover Debate

I recently exchanged a few tweets with an Christian apologist on twitter. As it turns out: we couldn't agree on very much. So I suggested that the topic was too big for a 140 character limit. He then politely referred me to his blog which contains an excellent pre-fabricated debate format. I chose the topic of "first cause", a popular point of contention between atheists and theists.  The debate format is as follows:

1 Introduction (1500 words or less) per debater.
1 long rebuttal (1000 words or less) per debater.
1 short rebuttal (750 words or less) per debater.
(This dialogue is temporarily suspended after short rebuttal)
3 questions posed for the other debater to answer (the answer to the 3 questions will be in 750 total words or less) per debater.
1 closing statement to end the debate (500 words or less) per debater.

The person who is making the affirmative case (depending on the topic) will make the first introduction while the other will make the last conclusion.

I think this is a fantastic idea. My Co-debater is Mr. Bushey of ThereforeGodExists.com and he was kind enough to send a link to his debate introduction which was posted on his blog. A link is provided in my introduction below. We shall continue the debate, posting our responses on our own blogs until the debate is complete. With Mr. Busheys permission, I shall post the debate in its entirety after it is complete.

So without further ado.

I recommend reading Mr. Bushey's 1500 introduction first and it can be viewed here: http://thereforegodexists.com/2013/01/is-a-prime-mover-necessary/

.... mine is posted below.

Introduction

For centuries, without empirical data, philosophers and theologians have pondered the origin of the universe.  Theists claim that certain philosophical arguments like the Kalam Cosmological are philosophical proof of a supernatural primary mover, that is: an uncaused-cause which exists necessarily, outside of space-time, and initiated the causal chain of our universe.  Most even take it a step further to provide philosophical proof that this primary mover must be a personal being.