Before you read Bobs proof, we need to learn a bit about physics, as it will be referenced in a few paragraphs. If you refer to this link of the 2nd law of thermodynamics you will see something about entropy. If you don't want to link out, here is the just of it. The 2nd law implies simply that the energy in the universe will eventually disperse evenly and be used up. Basically the universe metaphorically is like a spring wound watch. You wind the spring, and it holds energy. When the spring unwinds the energy is used up and the watch eventually comes to a rest. We know the universe is currently full of energy so we obviously haven't reached that point. Also the 2nd law proves that the universe as we know it has could not have always been in existence or it would have run out of energy by now and become dead. This is an excepted theory and proves there was in fact a beginning in which all of the energy in the universe was created. Real scientist would call this: The Big Bang.
Here is Bobs first attempt where he invokes the Laws of Thermodynamics to show proof of God.
While Intelligent Design skeptics may claim there is no evidence of God, the actual scientific evidence for God's existence is overwhelming, scientifically answering the question, "does God exist?".
In science there is a Law of Physics called the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Within it is a Conservation of Energy Law that states, as a key principle that all energy in a closed system must be conserved. Okay, fancy language, but what does that mean? It means that while energy can convert into matter (physical “stuff”), and matter into energy, however much total “stuff” there is (matter and energy), there can never be an increase in that total amount or a decrease in that total amount. So however much total “stuff” there is in the universe, (matter and energy combined), there can never have been more and never have been less. All it can do is convert to different forms, like matter to energy or energy to matter, but the total amount of all of it has to remain the same.
The “closed system” is a scientific term that refers to a system or an “area” that has no outside influence, like the universe. Now, as believers we know, of course, that God does influence the universe, so many believers would consider the universe an “open system”, (one that does get outside influence), but for the atheist who says there is no God, the universe is all there is, so from their perspective and for the sake of conventional science, the universe would get no outside influence and would therefore be considered a “closed system”.
Back to the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. If it states that you can never have an increase or decrease of energy/matter, which means that matter/energy can not be created from nothingness, how did we get all the matter and energy in the universe? If science is all there is and there is no God, then the 1st Law of Thermodynamics reigns supreme and therefore it would be impossible to have matter and energy in existence right now. Simply put, when you open your eyes and see matter and experience energy, what you see is impossible according to the known Laws of science if, in fact, there is no God. Therefore, science itself says there must be a God.
Plain and simple, matter/energy can not come into existence. It is scientifically impossible, yet here we see everything around us, so how can that be? There are really only 3 possibilities. Option A: Everything came into existence by itself anyway, without the help of God, (even though science has proven that impossible). Option B: Everything in the universe has always existed for all of eternity, (which, by the way is also scientifically impossible as explained in the Top Ten Proofs for God's Existence CD due to something called the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics), or Option C: There must be a God, a Being greater than science, who created the Laws of science and has the ability to disobey them. Not only is a belief in God the only logical conclusion to draw, it's the only one scientifically possible because remember, if there is no God, the first two options are scientifically impossible according to the actual Laws of Physics.
Here is my refutation of his Proof
Bobs proof seems to me like a bit of a word game, and is not the first time such a word game is been employed to persuade people of a flawed concept. It reminds me of one of Zeno's paradoxes, which states that:
Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 feet. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 feet, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 feet. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise.
This is as obvious misrepresentation of basic physics, but though its worded cleverly it is very deceiving. If the same tactic is applied to a concept that is not familiar (like thermodynamics) it is even more effective.
So here is my take on the big bang: We know that our universe is a closed system, no energy in, no energy out. We know that the 2nd law of thermodynamics proves that energy in our universe had an initial starting point when it was at its peak energy and is slowly being dispersed through entropy. Bob states that this starting point is where all of the universes energy began. But was it? The truth is that when the universe was formed a closed system was created, however we know nothing about how that energy was trapped into the system. I say trapped, because we don't know, and have no reason to believe that it was created when our "closed system" was formed. This is the root of Bobs word game.
Bob draws his conclusion from three unknown facts.
One: there was no existence prior to the formation of our universe.
Two: energy was created initially in the formation of our universe.
Three: God is the default answer where science has a gap.
In reality these first two concepts are still unknown, and the third is just a short cut to any thought at all. Again the only conclusion we can draw for certain, based on laws of thermodynamics, is that when the universe was created a "closed system" was formed. We know nothing about where that energy came from. (The default answer is not God or fairies or any supernatural entity.) There are still many theories being worked out that could explain how both a "closed system" universe is formed and where it could get its energy. One of such theories is known unofficially as The Parent Universe Theory. Which states the possibility of a parent universe which could spawn smaller daughter universes through black holes. It is also theorised that there is a megaverse out there which sections off smaller "closed systems" stacked with energy. Like air passing through a giant tub of soapy water, and releasing bubbles of trapped air.
If you look at how much is still unknown about the physics of our universe the possibilities for an event that would lead to natural occurring universe could be endless, however a supernatural explanation will more likely be Option #1,000,000,000 and not Option C
And so, Bob Dutko, the creationist, looks at his tiny bubble and says this is all that there is, and god is the cause. The energy in this bubble could not have been created due to the 1st law of thermodynamics, and so on.....
Science however will continue to look outside our tiny bubble and continue to give logical and natural occurring explanations for our reality.
Barry · 833 weeks ago
rev 38p · 833 weeks ago
A mere mortal · 768 weeks ago
"Arrogance and self-awareness seldom go together" - M to James Bond
rev 38p · 768 weeks ago
I suspect you find me to be arrogant for stating my opinions about the origin of the universe. Thank you for assuming that these are conclusions are based on my own logical deduction, very flattering, though you should relieved to know that I am only the middle man reformatting existing concepts of natural origins. I simply am trying to show the inconsistencies in the creationist's clever word-play on scientific matters.
Besides just popping in to tell me that i am arrogant, perhaps you'd add something worth thinking about to the conversation. Maybe instead of just disagreeing, you could offer some points of contention, or perhaps a line of logic that makes more sense than an EXPLANATION by natural means.
rev 38p · 833 weeks ago
nino · 822 weeks ago
Your answers and logic is based on a scientific information that is only limited.The absolute refuting of an existing entity that is beyond your understanding should not be farfetched since your knowledge is only limited to your info fed to you by scientists,that by the way have a long way to learn about new physical laws yet to describe dark matter and energy.I am not hypothything that for you there should be a forcce,beyond your understanding but I tthink you should keep your mind open to possibilities,that you do not yet comprehend,since most of the universe s filled up of a matter,that was only discovered within the last decade or so.So for you to be so adamont about knowing that God's solution would be your billionth possibility is going to change drastically if you live another billion years to understand the nature of this force or energy called creator.
rev 38p · 822 weeks ago
Rae · 790 weeks ago
I am a believer in God. Here are my thoughts: We are both making basic foundational assumptions. Mine, of course, is that no matter how it was made, the universe was created by a more supreme being. Science, then, would attempt to continually discover more about what was made and how it works. Your basic assumption is that all can be explained through naturalistic means. The problem is that no matter how many naturalistic theories are formed to explain the existence of our universe, something exists - which shouldn't if there is no outside influence. What I mean is this: Okay, what if there is a parent universe, or something outside this universe that spawned it? And maybe there is something beyond that which spawned it. Even if at the very beginning of the chain that "something" which eventually caused this universe is found to be infinite, that "something" contains ingredients. Whether that is matter or some unknown substance is irrelevant. Those ingredients exist. How? Why? Science can never answer how or why at that point. (Not that science usually answers the question "why?") So I am going to conclude that it is logical to believe that a Supreme Being who humans can't fully understand and who is outside of that which contains these "ingredients", outside of nature, caused this universe and everything in it. I don't believe that God created parent universes and so on, but that is because I, for now, have no reason to believe he did. It sounds like those theories are not scientific but instead are purely philosophical, and absolutely based on the assumption that all can be explained through naturalistic means. You may believe I am filling in the gaps with "God" (I disagree), but I believe you are just filling in the gaps with "We'll know later."
I also need to add that there seems to be much more evidence outside of this topic that points to a Creator, and when all is put together and considered, belief in God is, I think, quite plausible. For example: the Bible is by far the most historically sound document in existence. To reject the events that occurred, specifically the events surrounding Christ and the resurrection, you must reject it on means other than the historicity of the Bible, which is being confirmed more and more as we learn and discover new information about the past. And I know that is not what this debate is about, but my point is if the resurrection can't be refuted, than it is absolutely logical to start with the basic assumption that God created the universe.
With that, I respect your views and thank you for taking the time to read mine!
Rev · 790 weeks ago
I will start with this, which has already been addressed to Barry. Belief with justification by evidence is not the same as belief without justification or evidence. I believe that unanswered questions will have natural explanations because that is what has happened over and over and over throughout the history of human understanding. I believe events have natural causes, because the evidence supports that idea.
Please remember Rae, that any understanding of cause and effect in our world is founded completely on natural, explainable hypotheses supported with observation and evidence. Imagine the massive wealth of understanding about the observed events in this universe: ALL accepted explanations are entirely naturally based. Humanity has observed the confirmation of that fact over and over throughout the history of science. Yet here you are, suddenly reaching the next frontier of knowledge and expecting a different result? How is that logical at all?
Rev · 790 weeks ago
t cannot be. Furthermore, I do not think it is logical for you to conclude that a supernatural force must exist outside of nature which is the cause of any event. Over and over we have learned that things have natural causes, why would it be logical to expect a different result that conflicts with the past observations? It is not a valid conclusion because science has never observed a supernatural cause and scientists have no data or evidence to suggest such an existence is even possible. Granted, I know that I cannot prove that god does not exist, but hopefully at this point I have clarified why “God did it” is not a logical alternative hypothesis to explain issues that “Scientist cannot yet explain” It is acceptable to believe that all problems have a solution. It is acceptable to say: “I do not know the answer to this problem.” It is not acceptable to say: “The solution to this problem is a supernatural concept, which I have no evidence to support.” It conclusion, I say history, observable and documented evidence compiled by over two hundred years of research lends credibility to the concept that these problems have natural solutions. .....
Rev · 790 weeks ago
The old question: “If god created the universe, then what created god?” is usually answered in a similar fashion to your comment “God does not need a creator, because he “has no ingredients”, or “God exists outside time and existence”. But these are simply word play answers and have no real meaning. Both of those concepts are unjustified notions which are not supported by evidence. To make such a claim valid one must prove that a thing can exist outside of time, or that a thing can exist with no ingredients. I could very well propose the concept of a non-thinking, indifferent super-force, with no ingredients, which exist outside of time. I could also say that this force caused of all the matter in our universe to exist. This super-force caused our matter and universe in a way that was accidental, like a by-product of its existence outside of time.
Rev · 790 weeks ago
I could suggest that when the by-product of this super-force (matter) was created, it was actually the big bang. This super-force, being non-intelligent, was not aware of what it has caused and had no further influence, so after the big gang all of matter ran a natural course which can be explained through natural processes which are documented and observed by science.
WOW! What an interesting concept, seems to have the all same “clutch” arguments as your god argument. Yet, I’m willing to bet it sounded ridiculous. It should, its totally unjustified word play, yet you and everyone on the planet cannot prove my theory false. Should we be inclined to accept it a plausible explanation for the origin of matter? My position is that we should not.
rev 38p · 790 weeks ago
It can’t be proven wrong so…..“That means there’s a chance!” (A chance it’s true) Your right Rae, but that is not how humans decide what to believe in any other area of life. For ex: You cannot possibly prove that there are not fairies at the bottom of my garden, but you can prove that the PROBABILITY of that being true is slim, and that is based on the observations and evidence, which give no reason to conclude that fairies are real. A satellite could fall from the sky and crush you as you leave for work. It’s possible, but so unlikely to happen, so based on the probability that it won’t, you don’t think twice about it when you step outside. When someone IS afraid to go outside because they are scared of falling satellites or garden fairies, we call them crazy or neurotic.
rev 38p · 790 weeks ago
rev 38p · 790 weeks ago
rev 38p · 790 weeks ago
-rev
http://www.eatheist.info/2010/02/response-to-rae....
Caveman · 779 weeks ago
rev 38p · 779 weeks ago
What show was that i wonder..........
Well, i'm no physicist, but allow me to explain, as i understand it. Mass and energy are the same. Remember Einstein's famous equation? E=mc2.... Energy equals mass x the speed of light squared. What this means is that mass and energy are the same thing as far as the laws of thermodynamics are concerned. Maybe you could give a value to the amount of mass in the universe, like "1000" and the amount of energy at "500", totaling ="1500", this number remains constant, while the number of mass or energy may be in flux, the sum of the two remains constant. However, i am not sure how gravity plays into all that math, but i do know this. A force is a term that we give to describe dynamic change in an objects motion. If i throw a ball, and no other force acts on it, then it should continue to travel in a straight path infinitely. Any thing that causes change in its path of motion is called a force. Gravity warps space and simply changes the path of objects in motion that pass through that space. LIke a putting green that warps toward the hole. You may hit the ball past it, not directly at the hole, but the slope will seem to "pull" the ball toward the hole. Now i realize that I'm using a gravity analogy to describe gravity, but a 2 dimensional model is the best way to explain warping of space that is essentially a 3D event. Gravity is a force, but really, in context it is a word that describes what is happening to space. Would you call a hill or a slope an unrelenting force? Implying that it takes a sufficient sustained energy to keep the hill sloped, as if something was constantly trying to make it return to flatness, and only constant energy could keep it distorted and curved? I don't think that is an accurate model for describing what gravity is and does. Thats the best i can do for you caveman, hope that helps. On a closing note, i don't think the universe would be possible without gravity, it is not something that can be taken away or added after the fact. Or leaked in, I'm not even sure what that would mean, feel free to elaborate on what the universe would be without gravity, and how it could be "leaked" in and/or how a new characteristic of the universe could be added after the fact. One more thing: The "laws of thermodynamics" have been evaluated for many many many years, and validated through many many many experiments, i trust that if there is any inconsistency in the theorys/laws/evidence behind any scientific claim it will be identified and corrected according to the newest and most consistent data. So the far though, the overwhelming consensus is that the laws of thermodynamics are an accurate model for explaining how the universe and its physics work.
Thanks for the comment Caveman.